Thanks Torgeir! I saw this this week, so I feel that I am at least in a good camp. Someone like Grier uses both ways, but it is definitely something to work hard at, if you want to be able to move easily between both approaches.
- Why and how have you come to move from the loose finger style to a closed fist style?
- Do you still use some of the other approaches when needed?
- Do you advocate one above the other?
- Do you think one can generate the speed and punch the loose finger guys get with a closed grip?
-Do you think the approaches can be mixed?
It feels weird and unnatural to me to cross over from one to another and back again ( maybe it is something to get used to)
Appologies for the long winded post! I have been thinking a lot about this, and I am ready to start finalising it so that I can focus more on playing and writing J
Thanks for your super thoughtful question. Right hand posture an issue that many of us have experimented with and wrestled around over the years.
When I first started to play I would extend out my ring and pinky fingers and rest them on the top of the guitar the way that banjo players tend to hold their hands. The only reason I played this way was that both of my parents were banjo players and so I mimiced them. I was young and no one ever told me otherwise! What I got out of that hand position was a very solid sense of timing, but I had a lot of tension and the tone wasn't great. But it served me well. From a technical standpoint of playing fast and loud I kind of peaked around 2005, before I started to change to more of a closed fist style.
The reason I made the switch was that Thile used a closed fist and we had started to play together. He had strong opinions that he had more control with the closed fist. Also, in some of the music that he was writing and that I started playing (The Blind Leaving the Blind from the first Punch Brothers record) I needed to play some very complex crosspicking with lots of string changes and big leaps from low to high strings. I found that immediately the closed fist technique helped me with the crosspicking. Beyond that I just took it on faith that, "if it works for Thile - who has possibly the most capable right hand ever in American stringband music - it must be the best method."
I leaned in pretty hard to working on playing with a closed fist and it was helpful for playing some of that music. But in the process I lost a lot of control that I never quite got back. For instance, like you said, I could never play driving bluegrass as well with the closed hand technique. Also, my timing and feel changed to where I can't play with Tony Rice-esque timing as well as I once could. But I gained a new ability to swing when playing 16th notes. So there are advantages and disadvantages to both techniques.
With the benefit of hindsight and wisdom, I've learned that what works best for someone else is what works best for them, not necessarily for me. I think that's true for all of us. To answer some of your other questions:
-I do still revert to some semblance of the old technique when I'm playing bluegrass, but I'm not as good at it now as I once was. But I think that the ability to move between the different techniques is good, even if they're all a bit weaker for switching around and not dedicating to only one. So yes, I definitely think that the approaches can be mixed. I would encourage that you experiment with them.
Remember too that even though these different techniques have their strengths and weaknesses, just on account of how you are built, you may do better with one than another. And that's ok too. Just be open to what feels good to you. Try to be kinesthetically open and aware and see how you can best make the sound you want to hear. Stay in touch with whether or not you're staying relaxed. Your body is a great teacher - listen to it.
I hope all of that helps! Let me know if you have any other questions!
It just seems that a lot of great pickershave used both approaches, but that the loose fingers approach are favoured by the more ‘traditional’ flatpickers. Maybe because it is louder/punchier? Maybe the the closed fist style by more modern approach guys because the tone is more balanced?
I’ve herd your compadre - Thile advocate a definite ‘right way’, which is the closed fist way, which made me feel that if it works for him it can’t be too bad/inhibiting.
I’ve played the Rice way for about 4 years( started to dig a hole in my top from grabbing the strings), but have been playing ‘closed fist’ for the last three years or so, and I really do like it. I feel that I get a full round tone, and it is great for crosspicking. I can manage to play crosspick arrangements with the Rice/Sutton style, but it does not flow nearly as nicely.
So, the loose fingers approach sometimes feels cleaner/clearer on fiddle tunes and a bit crisper on rhythm, but that was actually the main reason I drifted away from that approach. It can very easily sound to thin to my ears. I like a full, round, warm sound, but I have found that I think the closed fist lacks volume and punch when compared to the other approaches especially when playing leads.
I don’t want to make this too long and I am willing to carry on with this discussion as long as it takes J
I am a newcomer on this platform and really loving your content I’ve seen so far. I am really looking forward to get into all your materials here, but I’d like to dive in with an issue I have been grappling with and exploring and experimenting with A LOT this year. It has been coming up pretty much every day when I practice this past year, and I signed up with you specifically because I love your tone and have huge respect for your playing and approach, and I believe that you have also undergone some changes in your playing over the years ( no pressure J )
The topic is my right hand.
1)Closed fist( Grier, your self, Molly Tuttle…)
2)bottom three fingers loose( Doc, Sutton, Blake)
3)Grabbing E and B strings with ring and pinkie fingers like Tony
Thanks Torgeir! I saw this this week, so I feel that I am at least in a good camp. Someone like Grier uses both ways, but it is definitely something to work hard at, if you want to be able to move easily between both approaches.
Bottom line question:
- Why and how have you come to move from the loose finger style to a closed fist style?
- Do you still use some of the other approaches when needed?
- Do you advocate one above the other?
- Do you think one can generate the speed and punch the loose finger guys get with a closed grip?
-Do you think the approaches can be mixed?
It feels weird and unnatural to me to cross over from one to another and back again ( maybe it is something to get used to)
Appologies for the long winded post! I have been thinking a lot about this, and I am ready to start finalising it so that I can focus more on playing and writing J
Thanks Chris!
Hi Wiam!
Thanks for your super thoughtful question. Right hand posture an issue that many of us have experimented with and wrestled around over the years.
When I first started to play I would extend out my ring and pinky fingers and rest them on the top of the guitar the way that banjo players tend to hold their hands. The only reason I played this way was that both of my parents were banjo players and so I mimiced them. I was young and no one ever told me otherwise! What I got out of that hand position was a very solid sense of timing, but I had a lot of tension and the tone wasn't great. But it served me well. From a technical standpoint of playing fast and loud I kind of peaked around 2005, before I started to change to more of a closed fist style.
The reason I made the switch was that Thile used a closed fist and we had started to play together. He had strong opinions that he had more control with the closed fist. Also, in some of the music that he was writing and that I started playing (The Blind Leaving the Blind from the first Punch Brothers record) I needed to play some very complex crosspicking with lots of string changes and big leaps from low to high strings. I found that immediately the closed fist technique helped me with the crosspicking. Beyond that I just took it on faith that, "if it works for Thile - who has possibly the most capable right hand ever in American stringband music - it must be the best method."
I leaned in pretty hard to working on playing with a closed fist and it was helpful for playing some of that music. But in the process I lost a lot of control that I never quite got back. For instance, like you said, I could never play driving bluegrass as well with the closed hand technique. Also, my timing and feel changed to where I can't play with Tony Rice-esque timing as well as I once could. But I gained a new ability to swing when playing 16th notes. So there are advantages and disadvantages to both techniques.
With the benefit of hindsight and wisdom, I've learned that what works best for someone else is what works best for them, not necessarily for me. I think that's true for all of us. To answer some of your other questions:
-I do still revert to some semblance of the old technique when I'm playing bluegrass, but I'm not as good at it now as I once was. But I think that the ability to move between the different techniques is good, even if they're all a bit weaker for switching around and not dedicating to only one. So yes, I definitely think that the approaches can be mixed. I would encourage that you experiment with them.
Remember too that even though these different techniques have their strengths and weaknesses, just on account of how you are built, you may do better with one than another. And that's ok too. Just be open to what feels good to you. Try to be kinesthetically open and aware and see how you can best make the sound you want to hear. Stay in touch with whether or not you're staying relaxed. Your body is a great teacher - listen to it.
I hope all of that helps! Let me know if you have any other questions!
Chris
It just seems that a lot of great pickers have used both approaches, but that the loose fingers approach are favoured by the more ‘traditional’ flatpickers. Maybe because it is louder/punchier? Maybe the the closed fist style by more modern approach guys because the tone is more balanced?
I’ve herd your compadre - Thile advocate a definite ‘right way’, which is the closed fist way, which made me feel that if it works for him it can’t be too bad/inhibiting.
I’ve played the Rice way for about 4 years( started to dig a hole in my top from grabbing the strings), but have been playing ‘closed fist’ for the last three years or so, and I really do like it. I feel that I get a full round tone, and it is great for crosspicking. I can manage to play crosspick arrangements with the Rice/Sutton style, but it does not flow nearly as nicely.
So, the loose fingers approach sometimes feels cleaner/clearer on fiddle tunes and a bit crisper on rhythm, but that was actually the main reason I drifted away from that approach. It can very easily sound to thin to my ears. I like a full, round, warm sound, but I have found that I think the closed fist lacks volume and punch when compared to the other approaches especially when playing leads.
I don’t want to make this too long and I am willing to carry on with this discussion as long as it takes J
Hey Chris!
I am a newcomer on this platform and really loving your content I’ve seen so far. I am really looking forward to get into all your materials here, but I’d like to dive in with an issue I have been grappling with and exploring and experimenting with A LOT this year. It has been coming up pretty much every day when I practice this past year, and I signed up with you specifically because I love your tone and have huge respect for your playing and approach, and I believe that you have also undergone some changes in your playing over the years ( no pressure J )
The topic is my right hand.
1)Closed fist( Grier, your self, Molly Tuttle…)
2)bottom three fingers loose( Doc, Sutton, Blake)
3)Grabbing E and B strings with ring and pinkie fingers like Tony