I'm really glad you're doing this third position tune. I'm in the category of someone who has noodled around with it some but really hasn't gotten tight with it, and I want to. I've gotten to the point in my listening where I can tell, at least most of the time, when the harmonica part is being played in third position. It has a very distinctive sound. Even though you're playing strictly in the blues scale, as you did in second position with the "Scaled Down" study song, this third position playing sounds distinctly different. Is it that certain licks and distorted notes fall more naturally in this position? I used to think that it just fit minor tunes better but then I listen to James Cotton's playing in "Heart Attack" and, even though I can tell it's in third position somehow, it doesn't have that dark and dirty feel (not incidentally, we should all be mourning the loss this past week of one the immortals of blues harmonica.) I think I'm starting to get carried away here, but I would love to hear your take on this question.
Hi Bill - You bring up some great questions and ideas. Each position sounds distinctly different just because of the tuning of the instrument and how the different parts of the scale are played (some are bent notes, others are not, etc)...and of course certain "distorted"notes work in one position better than another because of the tuning of the instrument.
The idea that 3rd position is only useful for something "minor" is very simplistic and basically wrong thinking. You can play in ANY position in ANY mode (minor, major, blues, etc) as long as you know what notes to use and to NOT use. 3rd position does have some minor notes easily available, but it also has some major notes easily available. You have to know where to go!
Yes, I have posted on social media (facebook and Instagram) about the loss of James Cotton. He is one of my main influneces on the harmonica. The three biggets influences I have from the originators of blues harp are Little Walter, James Cotton, and George "Harmonica" Smith. I was glad I got to meet him early on and know him a little bit, as well as perform with him. He was a great man, and one of the best harp players ever!
You really hit a sweet spot for my playing on this one. It's challenging but within reach. In edu-speak, we call that the zone of proximal development (since you are a man who loves words I know you'll appreciate how that trips off the tongue :). As I was saying in a previous post, I'm trying to understand the theory of why certain notes work or don't work on certain chords, but you have reaffirmed for me that you have to hear it first, at least I do. And of course, it don't mean a thing if ain't got that groove. I may have some more questions before I'm through, but know that this was a great series and I for one am looking forward to the next one.
Hi Bill - I'm a fan of language but I'm also a high school dropout so I'm gonna have to look up proximal. I suspect it's somehow related to proximity - I guess I'll find out. And, I'm real glad you enjoyed this series. If you have any suggestions for general focus points for future lessons, I'd love to hear them. (That goes for all my SJ people) ...I can't promise I'll implement any of the suggestions, but I'm curious about what they might be and open to hearing everyone's ideas.
Thanks. Good to know for practicing purposes. The vibrato seems so important to me, not as an affect but as a way of feeling that a note is resonating in the context of the chord. I first got the vibrato puckering and it happened without trying. It comes from a vibration of my tongue in a way I can't do when tongue blocking because my tongue is occupied. It has the same feel as singing a note and having it ring in that way. Getting that resonating feel from a throat vibrato is still getting there for me but it happens often enough that I know how right it feels and it keeps me working on it. I really notice all the places, big and small, where you do it.
I love the cough. Junior Wells was a master at that right? Making percussive sounds in between harmonica notes? I hope you disinfect that harmonica though. We want you back.
So I notice when you get a quick vibrato, especially on the two and three hole bends, you do a little head shake. Is that actually part of the technique of getting the vibrato, or maybe something that helps keep the groove, or maybe you're just styling? Like at the end of the phrase in the 4-chord when you hit the 3-hole bend - that vibrato makes it sound so great.
Yes Bill - I checked and you're absolutely right - again! I was unaware I was doing that. I'm not sure why I do it - I think it's mostly just some feel/involuntary body language thing. I tried playing the lick while keeping my head completely stationary and I couldn't notice any discernible difference in the sound or the effect. The vibrato is generated from my throat. l actually do another thing like that. When I hold a long slow vibrato, my jaw goes slightly up and down. Same deal - Somebody asked me about it and I was completely unaware I was doing it. I looked in the mirror, and could see I was doing it. Then I made a conscious effort to keep my jaw still and sonically, the difference was basically undetectable.
I agree 1000% that listening comes first. I don't read music, or if I do I'm at a 2-year-old level. I've always learned by getting things in my head, to the point where I can sing or hum them, and then finding the notes and phrasing on the instrument. Now that I'm learning a little theory it just helps me make a little sense of what I'm hearing. Just wanted you to know that I appreciate those little bits of info you're providing. Now I'll get back to work on my snoring. My wife tells mine it is not always so gentle.
Every one of these verses has something cool about it, but when I first heard this one I knew there was something different going on. That major 7th note definitely gives the melody that big band feel. It conjures crowds of people out on the floor in a joyful, swinging dance. On the 5 chord also, when you go up from the dominant to the major 7th instead of to the E, that little difference changes the feel in such a cool way.
I know you don't like to make a big deal of the theory but as I'm picking up more and more of it I find this kind of information helps me make sense of what I'm playing. Maybe it's just having a name for it, the major vs. the dominant 7th, which applies to any instrument or any position on the harmonica for that matter. Not to diminish (no pun intended) the emphasis on the groove, but if you're going to make friends with all these notes it seems like you should know their names :)
Could you say a little about that dip to the dominant 7th on the 4-chord? How are you getting that growl? Do you have your tongue on the harp when you do that?
Hi Bill - Knowing some theory is definitely helpful, especially when communicating with other musicians who often don't believe the harmonica is a real instrument. Just don't let theory distract you from the actual music. Theory can help you understand why certain things work in certain spots - but IMO, theory has to be secondary to listening. An absolute truth is that if you can't hear it, you'll never be able to play it. Regarding the 2 draw bend on the IV, I'm tongue blocking, but it'll work with lip pursing too. The little growl is produced in the back of my throat by simulating a gentle "snoring" effect. The bend itself is just a full bend with a gradual release. Thanks for the thoughtful feedback (no pun intended) and any questions are always welcome.
The most challenging part of this for me is that 5-chord part. I feel like if I can get that back and forth on the 3-hole draw I'll have something that will work in a lot of situations.
This verse reminds me of Little Walter's playing on "Oh Baby". Not the same but it fits and has that feel. His harp really propels the song, the way you carry the rhythm on this one.
When I first started playing, Jerry told me to listen to John Lee Williamson and I didn't listen to anything else for about 6 months. Figured I was getting to source the music. The thing I remember most is his rhythm and groove, a handful of licks that he mixed and matched and tweaked and varied, but always with that groove. I go back every now and then to get another shot.
Hi Bill - I can always hear something new almost any time I go back and listen to the classic stuff. And you're right about that V thing - This whole piece is designed to help nail those bent notes with greater accuracy.
I think I know what you're saying. I thought it was a bend thing as opposed to going back and forth between holes, so I think I can work it out. If not I'll pester you again :)
Maybe you're going to talk about this later in the series but if not could you say something about the little roll on the 2-draw in that ending part that repeats each verse?
Hi Bill - Once again, good ear! I'm not sure if I address that or not, but it's a little quick release from the bend and back again that produces that rolling effect.
Glad you're diggin the song, Bill. When I think about it, the head was probably inspired (or lifted from) Jimmy Reed's Boogie In The Dark. What I'm playing is kind of an approximation, combining his harp part with Eddie Taylor's part. The rest of the song is mostly just big band-type riffs. If you want to hear that kind of stuff, Count Basie's a good place to start. Other than that, I like a whole bunch of sax players. A few of my favorites would be, Willis Jackson, Illinois Jacquet, Lockjaw Davis, Jimmy Forrest and bunch of other guys - mostly guys who spanned the big band and soul jazz eras.
Stanley Turrenting with Shirley Scott Organ Trio is another example of fat greasy groove. Jimmy Forrest is also one of my fav's - check out The Honeydripper recording with Jack McDuff.
I like these sax players for ideas that translate real well to diatonic harmonica.
Thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of embossing before. There's lots about it on line. I'm going to experiment with some old reeds and then give it try on this one. There's definitely a difference between the way this reed responds and other low 2-hole draws I have. The G harp is my lowest but I have an A-flat and an A and don't have this problem with those, so it's at least worth a try.
Thanks also for this lesson. Such simple licks make getting the tone, rhythm and articulation key. Just what I needed to work on.
Glad you are digging the lesson and the song. So many of the great players are using the same notes we all are...but it's all about the attack, the tone, the phrasing, the textures...the LIFE that you breathe into these notes which makes it music that speaks to others. Happy New Year!
This is a question about harp maintenance/adjustment. Maybe it's just my technique - if that's the case it would be good to know- but on my G harp the 2-hole draw doesn't feel right. The offset of the reed looks just like the others but it feels leaky, like I'm sucking a lot of air and there's none of the resistance you feel normally that gives you a kind of grip on the air stream. I've experienced this with other harps on other holes. It's making my work on the 2-hole TB bend pretty frustrating. It's a little better when I pucker but not much. It's hard to sustain a note. Do you think it's my technique or could there be a something wrong with the harp?
Hi Bill - it's tough to say obviously without seeing it, but it does sound like a leaky hole by your description. If you have a decent grasp of the 2-hole draw on most other harps (like A or Low F) and puckering doesn't make much difference (assuming you started as a pucker player) then it likely isn't your technique. You may want to check out about embossing the reed slots, that will make a difference and is not too difficult to do...assuming it's the harp and not you.
For technique things like bending and/or tongue-blocking, short but multiple practice episodes work best. Before you know it, the muscle memory will kick in, and it will become easier and better.
If you suspected that yes I am tongue-blocking it, then you do know the answer! Tongue-blocking on hole 2 is so imporatnt, especially for the rhythms and attacks you need to do this style of playing justice...it allows you so many more textures and rhythmic nuances, as well as tonal variations.
Thanks Dennis. I've been digging through recordings and had a list of possibles. I found one recording by Arbee Stidham and he was on my list to explore further so you've prompted me to look deeper. He's more the style I'm interested in that Jimmy Ricks but I'm going to look deeper there also.
This is a little off topic but I know you have an encyplopedic knowledge of blues history so I wanted to ask if you could point me toward bass blues singers, especially from the 40's, 50's, 60's. Most of the deep voices one might suspect, like Muddy and Wolf, actually have baritone to tenor ranges. If you would prefer and there's a way to take this conversation off line let me know.
Hi Bill - I do apologize, I think I recall getting a message about this, but it seemed to have gotten lost in the shuffle. Not many people come to mind, aside from two people who may not be stylistically what you prefer, but you never know. Jimmy Ricks who was the lead/bass vocalsit for a vocal group called The Ravens was awesome...very low voice...and for that matter, there are several other vocal R&B groups from the 40's-50's that had great bass vocalists, many were not lead as Jimmy was however. The other one who comes ot mind, not as low as Jimmy was Arbee Stidham. Chicago blues artists who did some great tunes, and you can probaly find some of his stuff online. Let me kow if that helps!
Mike,I just wanted to let you know that the new format, which allows you to find individual lesson sets without going through every lesson since the beginning of time, is a huge improvement. Nice work and thanks!
Hi Dennis,
I'm really glad you're doing this third position tune. I'm in the category of someone who has noodled around with it some but really hasn't gotten tight with it, and I want to. I've gotten to the point in my listening where I can tell, at least most of the time, when the harmonica part is being played in third position. It has a very distinctive sound. Even though you're playing strictly in the blues scale, as you did in second position with the "Scaled Down" study song, this third position playing sounds distinctly different. Is it that certain licks and distorted notes fall more naturally in this position? I used to think that it just fit minor tunes better but then I listen to James Cotton's playing in "Heart Attack" and, even though I can tell it's in third position somehow, it doesn't have that dark and dirty feel (not incidentally, we should all be mourning the loss this past week of one the immortals of blues harmonica.) I think I'm starting to get carried away here, but I would love to hear your take on this question.
Thanks.
Bill
Hi Bill - You bring up some great questions and ideas. Each position sounds distinctly different just because of the tuning of the instrument and how the different parts of the scale are played (some are bent notes, others are not, etc)...and of course certain "distorted"notes work in one position better than another because of the tuning of the instrument.
The idea that 3rd position is only useful for something "minor" is very simplistic and basically wrong thinking. You can play in ANY position in ANY mode (minor, major, blues, etc) as long as you know what notes to use and to NOT use. 3rd position does have some minor notes easily available, but it also has some major notes easily available. You have to know where to go!
Yes, I have posted on social media (facebook and Instagram) about the loss of James Cotton. He is one of my main influneces on the harmonica. The three biggets influences I have from the originators of blues harp are Little Walter, James Cotton, and George "Harmonica" Smith. I was glad I got to meet him early on and know him a little bit, as well as perform with him. He was a great man, and one of the best harp players ever!
Rick,
You really hit a sweet spot for my playing on this one. It's challenging but within reach. In edu-speak, we call that the zone of proximal development (since you are a man who loves words I know you'll appreciate how that trips off the tongue :). As I was saying in a previous post, I'm trying to understand the theory of why certain notes work or don't work on certain chords, but you have reaffirmed for me that you have to hear it first, at least I do. And of course, it don't mean a thing if ain't got that groove. I may have some more questions before I'm through, but know that this was a great series and I for one am looking forward to the next one.
Bill
Hi Bill - I'm a fan of language but I'm also a high school dropout so I'm gonna have to look up proximal. I suspect it's somehow related to proximity - I guess I'll find out. And, I'm real glad you enjoyed this series. If you have any suggestions for general focus points for future lessons, I'd love to hear them. (That goes for all my SJ people) ...I can't promise I'll implement any of the suggestions, but I'm curious about what they might be and open to hearing everyone's ideas.
Thanks. Good to know for practicing purposes. The vibrato seems so important to me, not as an affect but as a way of feeling that a note is resonating in the context of the chord. I first got the vibrato puckering and it happened without trying. It comes from a vibration of my tongue in a way I can't do when tongue blocking because my tongue is occupied. It has the same feel as singing a note and having it ring in that way. Getting that resonating feel from a throat vibrato is still getting there for me but it happens often enough that I know how right it feels and it keeps me working on it. I really notice all the places, big and small, where you do it.
Hi Bill - Yeah, feel free to ask me anything. It's funny for me to learn about things that I'm completely unaware I'm doing.
Hey Rick,
I love the cough. Junior Wells was a master at that right? Making percussive sounds in between harmonica notes? I hope you disinfect that harmonica though. We want you back.
So I notice when you get a quick vibrato, especially on the two and three hole bends, you do a little head shake. Is that actually part of the technique of getting the vibrato, or maybe something that helps keep the groove, or maybe you're just styling? Like at the end of the phrase in the 4-chord when you hit the 3-hole bend - that vibrato makes it sound so great.
Thanks,
Bill
Hi Bill - That's news to me! I'll take a look and get back to you.
Yes Bill - I checked and you're absolutely right - again! I was unaware I was doing that. I'm not sure why I do it - I think it's mostly just some feel/involuntary body language thing. I tried playing the lick while keeping my head completely stationary and I couldn't notice any discernible difference in the sound or the effect. The vibrato is generated from my throat. l actually do another thing like that. When I hold a long slow vibrato, my jaw goes slightly up and down. Same deal - Somebody asked me about it and I was completely unaware I was doing it. I looked in the mirror, and could see I was doing it. Then I made a conscious effort to keep my jaw still and sonically, the difference was basically undetectable.
I agree 1000% that listening comes first. I don't read music, or if I do I'm at a 2-year-old level. I've always learned by getting things in my head, to the point where I can sing or hum them, and then finding the notes and phrasing on the instrument. Now that I'm learning a little theory it just helps me make a little sense of what I'm hearing. Just wanted you to know that I appreciate those little bits of info you're providing. Now I'll get back to work on my snoring. My wife tells mine it is not always so gentle.
Hi Rick,
Every one of these verses has something cool about it, but when I first heard this one I knew there was something different going on. That major 7th note definitely gives the melody that big band feel. It conjures crowds of people out on the floor in a joyful, swinging dance. On the 5 chord also, when you go up from the dominant to the major 7th instead of to the E, that little difference changes the feel in such a cool way.
I know you don't like to make a big deal of the theory but as I'm picking up more and more of it I find this kind of information helps me make sense of what I'm playing. Maybe it's just having a name for it, the major vs. the dominant 7th, which applies to any instrument or any position on the harmonica for that matter. Not to diminish (no pun intended) the emphasis on the groove, but if you're going to make friends with all these notes it seems like you should know their names :)
Could you say a little about that dip to the dominant 7th on the 4-chord? How are you getting that growl? Do you have your tongue on the harp when you do that?
Thanks,
Bill
Hi Bill - Knowing some theory is definitely helpful, especially when communicating with other musicians who often don't believe the harmonica is a real instrument. Just don't let theory distract you from the actual music. Theory can help you understand why certain things work in certain spots - but IMO, theory has to be secondary to listening. An absolute truth is that if you can't hear it, you'll never be able to play it. Regarding the 2 draw bend on the IV, I'm tongue blocking, but it'll work with lip pursing too. The little growl is produced in the back of my throat by simulating a gentle "snoring" effect. The bend itself is just a full bend with a gradual release. Thanks for the thoughtful feedback (no pun intended) and any questions are always welcome.
I do remember slowing records down from 33 rpm to 16 rpm! Yikes! I'm old!
The most challenging part of this for me is that 5-chord part. I feel like if I can get that back and forth on the 3-hole draw I'll have something that will work in a lot of situations.
This verse reminds me of Little Walter's playing on "Oh Baby". Not the same but it fits and has that feel. His harp really propels the song, the way you carry the rhythm on this one.
When I first started playing, Jerry told me to listen to John Lee Williamson and I didn't listen to anything else for about 6 months. Figured I was getting to source the music. The thing I remember most is his rhythm and groove, a handful of licks that he mixed and matched and tweaked and varied, but always with that groove. I go back every now and then to get another shot.
Hi Bill - I can always hear something new almost any time I go back and listen to the classic stuff. And you're right about that V thing - This whole piece is designed to help nail those bent notes with greater accuracy.
I think I know what you're saying. I thought it was a bend thing as opposed to going back and forth between holes, so I think I can work it out. If not I'll pester you again :)
thanks
B
Let me know if that helped enough for you to work it out. If you have any more questions about this lick or anything at all, don't hesitate to ask.
Hi Rick,
Maybe you're going to talk about this later in the series but if not could you say something about the little roll on the 2-draw in that ending part that repeats each verse?
Thanks,
Bill
Hi Bill - Once again, good ear! I'm not sure if I address that or not, but it's a little quick release from the bend and back again that produces that rolling effect.
Thanks Rick and Larry. So much great music to listen to!
WAY too much for one lifetime!
Hi Rick,
This tune just makes me grin ear to ear - I love it.
I'm curious what sax players you love. Who should I listen to to soak up more of this kind of groove?
Thanks,
Bill
Glad you're diggin the song, Bill. When I think about it, the head was probably inspired (or lifted from) Jimmy Reed's Boogie In The Dark. What I'm playing is kind of an approximation, combining his harp part with Eddie Taylor's part. The rest of the song is mostly just big band-type riffs. If you want to hear that kind of stuff, Count Basie's a good place to start. Other than that, I like a whole bunch of sax players. A few of my favorites would be, Willis Jackson, Illinois Jacquet, Lockjaw Davis, Jimmy Forrest and bunch of other guys - mostly guys who spanned the big band and soul jazz eras.
Stanley Turrenting with Shirley Scott Organ Trio is another example of fat greasy groove. Jimmy Forrest is also one of my fav's - check out The Honeydripper recording with Jack McDuff.
I like these sax players for ideas that translate real well to diatonic harmonica.
https://youtu.be/7iYKyCLxxWA
Hey, it worked! The embossing brought my 2-hole draw reed back from the dead, good as new. Thanks.
Glad it worked!!
Thanks for the tip. I'd never heard of embossing before. There's lots about it on line. I'm going to experiment with some old reeds and then give it try on this one. There's definitely a difference between the way this reed responds and other low 2-hole draws I have. The G harp is my lowest but I have an A-flat and an A and don't have this problem with those, so it's at least worth a try.
Thanks also for this lesson. Such simple licks make getting the tone, rhythm and articulation key. Just what I needed to work on.
Bill
Glad you are digging the lesson and the song. So many of the great players are using the same notes we all are...but it's all about the attack, the tone, the phrasing, the textures...the LIFE that you breathe into these notes which makes it music that speaks to others. Happy New Year!
Hi Dennis,
This is a question about harp maintenance/adjustment. Maybe it's just my technique - if that's the case it would be good to know- but on my G harp the 2-hole draw doesn't feel right. The offset of the reed looks just like the others but it feels leaky, like I'm sucking a lot of air and there's none of the resistance you feel normally that gives you a kind of grip on the air stream. I've experienced this with other harps on other holes. It's making my work on the 2-hole TB bend pretty frustrating. It's a little better when I pucker but not much. It's hard to sustain a note. Do you think it's my technique or could there be a something wrong with the harp?
Thanks,
Bill
Hi Bill - it's tough to say obviously without seeing it, but it does sound like a leaky hole by your description. If you have a decent grasp of the 2-hole draw on most other harps (like A or Low F) and puckering doesn't make much difference (assuming you started as a pucker player) then it likely isn't your technique. You may want to check out about embossing the reed slots, that will make a difference and is not too difficult to do...assuming it's the harp and not you.
Mine is there sometimes but definitely needs work. Thanks for the opportunity :)
For technique things like bending and/or tongue-blocking, short but multiple practice episodes work best. Before you know it, the muscle memory will kick in, and it will become easier and better.
I suspect I know the answer to this question but I'll ask anyway. Tongue blocking that 2-hole whole step bend on the last riff?
If you suspected that yes I am tongue-blocking it, then you do know the answer! Tongue-blocking on hole 2 is so imporatnt, especially for the rhythms and attacks you need to do this style of playing justice...it allows you so many more textures and rhythmic nuances, as well as tonal variations.
Thanks Dennis. I've been digging through recordings and had a list of possibles. I found one recording by Arbee Stidham and he was on my list to explore further so you've prompted me to look deeper. He's more the style I'm interested in that Jimmy Ricks but I'm going to look deeper there also.
Thanks again.
Bill
Yea I figured that, but there is some later Ravens stuff with Ricks that may be more up your alley. Thanks for asking...
Peppermint Harris may also be of interest...
This is a little off topic but I know you have an encyplopedic knowledge of blues history so I wanted to ask if you could point me toward bass blues singers, especially from the 40's, 50's, 60's. Most of the deep voices one might suspect, like Muddy and Wolf, actually have baritone to tenor ranges. If you would prefer and there's a way to take this conversation off line let me know.
Many thanks,
Bill
Hi Bill - I do apologize, I think I recall getting a message about this, but it seemed to have gotten lost in the shuffle. Not many people come to mind, aside from two people who may not be stylistically what you prefer, but you never know. Jimmy Ricks who was the lead/bass vocalsit for a vocal group called The Ravens was awesome...very low voice...and for that matter, there are several other vocal R&B groups from the 40's-50's that had great bass vocalists, many were not lead as Jimmy was however. The other one who comes ot mind, not as low as Jimmy was Arbee Stidham. Chicago blues artists who did some great tunes, and you can probaly find some of his stuff online. Let me kow if that helps!
Mike,I just wanted to let you know that the new format, which allows you to find individual lesson sets without going through every lesson since the beginning of time, is a huge improvement. Nice work and thanks!
Bill
Hi Bill --- glad it's working for you. As you keep using the new design--- would be great to know what's working and what can be better.